I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
In article 34kb0tF4c4sreU1@redacted.invalid, 5605 not@redacted.invalid wrote:
I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so thereÀs no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
On 12/1/05 12:51 pm, in article twanginman-B9B73E.12512112012005@redacted.invalid, "Twangin'" twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 34kb0tF4c4sreU1@redacted.invalid, 5605 not@redacted.invalid wrote:
I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so thereÀs no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
The last time Apple had a fanless Mac, they shouted about that quite a lot. So I think we can safely conclude there's a fan in the mini.
Cheers,
Chris
Twangin' twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 34kb0tF4c4sreU1@redacted.invalid, 5605 not@redacted.invalid wrote:
I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so there's no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
I just tried purring a whisper. It sounded like a fart.
On 12/1/05 1:27 pm, in article 1gqa2le.1m6tlyc1gjccf0N%booman@redacted.invalid, "Jonny Stephens" booman@redacted.invalid wrote:
Twangin' twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 34kb0tF4c4sreU1@redacted.invalid, 5605 not@redacted.invalid wrote:
I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so there's no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
I just tried purring a whisper. It sounded like a fart.
According to Henry Norr at http://www.macintouch.com/mwsf2005notebook.html,
"It does have a fan. An Apple staffer at the booth told me it produces 22 dB, but she wasn't sure if that's when idle, in normal use, or what. Since the only units I've seen are out on the floor, I couldn't tell how it sounds. It draws air in from vents on the bottom, along three sides of the device, and blows out through vents on the back, above the ports."
Cheers,
Chris
Twangin' twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so thereÀs no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
From http://www.macintouch.com/mwsf2005notebook.html
It does have a fan. An Apple staffer at the booth told me it produces 22 dB, but she wasn't sure if that's when idle, in normal use, or what. Since the only units I've seen are out on the floor, I couldn't tell how it sounds. It draws air in from vents on the bottom, along three sides of the device, and blows out through vents on the back, above the ports.
Apple "does not recommend" that users upgrade the memory themselves - you're supposed to have a service provider do it if you want to add more after purchase - but doing it yourself does not void the warranty unless you damage something. A booth person told me the memory slot is easily accessible once you get the case open.
The hard drives are 2.5-inch (notebook drives) - that's why Apple isn't offering higher capacities (80 GB is about the largest available, at least in volume, in the 2.5-inch format). The booth person said she thought the Apple drives spin at 5,400 rpm, but she wasn't sure, and I haven't found any confirmation. The drive isn't readily accessible, so even when larger capacities become available, upgrading won't be easy.
Jonny Stephens booman@redacted.invalid wrote:
Twangin' twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 34kb0tF4c4sreU1@redacted.invalid, 5605 not@redacted.invalid wrote:
I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so there's no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
I just tried purring a whisper. It sounded like a fart.
Did you try purring out your mouth instead ;)
Twangin' twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so there's no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
-zoara-
[1] Despite all the images on Apples site having it next to the monitor...
Chris Ridd chrisridd@redacted.invalid wrote:
According to Henry Norr at http://www.macintouch.com/mwsf2005notebook.html,
"It does have a fan. An Apple staffer at the booth told me it produces 22 dB,
On its own, that figure is meaningless because they do not say what reference level they used.
If it's 22dBA, that's quiet but if it's 22dB above (for instance) a quiet office background, that's going to upset a lot of people.
reply to slashdot thread from a guy who was at Paris mini-lauch suggested it was silent. He'd put his ear right next to mac mini. Though he did speculate it's fan might vary speed from zero to whatever according to the systems temp or workload.
Si
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
Andrew
On 12/1/05 8:53 pm, in article spambucket-A9CB35.20531712012005@redacted.invalid, "Andrew Collier" spambucket@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
Not for long ;-)
Cheers,
Chris
Si sus_it@redacted.invalid wrote:
reply to slashdot thread from a guy who was at Paris mini-lauch suggested it was silent. He'd put his ear right next to mac mini. Though he did speculate it's fan might vary speed from zero to whatever according to the systems temp or workload.
Si
well its got a faily low power out put so it shouldn't be that hot/nosey.
roger
Si wrote:
reply to slashdot thread from a guy who was at Paris mini-lauch suggested it was silent. He'd put his ear right next to mac mini. Though he did speculate it's fan might vary speed from zero to whatever according to the systems temp or workload.
Si
Please, please, please DON'T trim ALL the context.
Thank you.
[OK Zoara ?]
why not? :-)
sorry David, couldn't resist - everyone else's had a go.......
Twangin' twanginman@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 34kb0tF4c4sreU1@redacted.invalid, 5605 not@redacted.invalid wrote:
I've not found any info about the dreaded cooling fans in the Mini Mac. As i plan on having one as an 'under the telly' device this is all important (Mac mini plus EyeTV digital for an all in one media centre)
anyone got any thoughts?
http://www.apple.com/uk/macmini/design.html
"Best of all, Mac mini purrs along at a whisper-quiet sound level, so there's no reason to hide it under your desk like an old PC to save your ears."
This would imply there is a fan although I haven't seen a definitive statement anywhere yet.
I'd imagine it probably has, albeit a tiny little laptop type one. Probably not as issue with the hard disk more than enough to drown it out.
Andrew Collier spambucket@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
"But nobody uses CRTs any more" - Steve Jobs [1]
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how strong it is...
-zoara-
[1] Not really, Simon, not really. Calm down.
zoara me3@redacted.invalid wrote:
Andrew Collier spambucket@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
"But nobody uses CRTs any more" - Steve Jobs [1]
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how strong it is...
My 19" has already destroyed an off the shelf desk, so I ended up building a desk to my own specs [1]. I doubt the mini mac [2] would last very long under there.
[1] I shopped around locally both new and used for anything suitable but short of a £300 desk, or close to 17" TFT monitor prices at the time, neither of which I could afford, so build my own it was. [2] I've decided to change the name as it flows of the tongue better
Chris Ridd wrote
The last time Apple had a fanless Mac, they shouted about that quite a lot.
...and then installed a graphics card which did have a fan on.
Martin
On 15/1/05 12:48 am, in article 0001HW.BE0E18F2001D8737F02845B0@redacted.invalid, "Martin S Taylor" usenet@redacted.invalid wrote:
Chris Ridd wrote
The last time Apple had a fanless Mac, they shouted about that quite a lot.
...and then installed a graphics card which did have a fan on.
Was that in the original cubes, or did they upgrade them at some point in their short lives?
Cheers,
Chris
David Kennedy davidkennedy@redacted.invalid wrote:
Si wrote:
reply to slashdot thread from a guy who was at Paris mini-lauch suggested it was silent. He'd put his ear right next to mac mini. Though he did speculate it's fan might vary speed from zero to whatever according to the systems temp or workload.
Si
Please, please, please DON'T trim ALL the context.
Thank you.
[OK Zoara ?] Didn't we conclude that Google Groups doesn't give you a choice?
peterlee@redacted.invalid (Peter Lee) wrote:
David Kennedy davidkennedy@redacted.invalid wrote: [snip]
Please, please, please DON'T trim ALL the context.
Thank you.
[OK Zoara ?] Didn't we conclude that Google Groups doesn't give you a choice?
It does give you a choice, but in a non-obvious way. It should be the default.
How To Quote With Google Groups (beta): Click on "show options" next to name of author and date. Click "reply".
Tim
Peter Lee wrote:
David Kennedy davidkennedy@redacted.invalid wrote:
Si wrote:
reply to slashdot thread from a guy who was at Paris mini-lauch suggested it was silent. He'd put his ear right next to mac mini. Though he did speculate it's fan might vary speed from zero to whatever according to the systems temp or workload.
Si
Please, please, please DON'T trim ALL the context.
Thank you.
[OK Zoara ?]
Didn't we conclude that Google Groups doesn't give you a choice?
Not me Guv. I did a test and you can quote no problem.
Tim Auton wrote:
peterlee@redacted.invalid (Peter Lee) wrote:
David Kennedy davidkennedy@redacted.invalid wrote:
[snip]
Please, please, please DON'T trim ALL the context.
Thank you.
[OK Zoara ?]
Didn't we conclude that Google Groups doesn't give you a choice?
It does give you a choice, but in a non-obvious way. It should be the default.
I opened a new google account and it quoted straight out of the box. You can even check with their pre-view facility.
Chris Ridd chrisridd@redacted.invalid wrote:
On 15/1/05 12:48 am, in article 0001HW.BE0E18F2001D8737F02845B0@redacted.invalid, "Martin S Taylor" usenet@redacted.invalid wrote:
Chris Ridd wrote
The last time Apple had a fanless Mac, they shouted about that quite a lot.
...and then installed a graphics card which did have a fan on.
Was that in the original cubes, or did they upgrade them at some point in their short lives?
Later ones had a fan on the graphics cards.
Jon B wrote:
zoara me3@redacted.invalid wrote:
Andrew Collier spambucket@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
"But nobody uses CRTs any more" - Steve Jobs [1]
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how strong it is...
My 19" has already destroyed an off the shelf desk, so I ended up building a desk to my own specs [1]. I doubt the mini mac [2] would last very long under there.
[1] I shopped around locally both new and used for anything suitable but short of a £300 desk, or close to 17" TFT monitor prices at the time, neither of which I could afford, so build my own it was. [2] I've decided to change the name as it flows of the tongue better
Ikea have a desk in their "JERKER" range that supports our 21" Sun monitor, a IBM PC and a Performa 5200 (iTurd) :-)
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years (the Performa doesn't count, it's a curio thrown out by a friend), especially since OSX is built on Unix and I have FreeBSD as well as Windoze on the PC, and the mini is very tempting. I found the newsgroup on Google. If there is a FAQ I was supposed to read before posting, I apologise and ask that I can be pointed to it.
Liz G (newb)
Liz Gerard lilith@redacted.invalid wrote:
Jon B wrote:
zoara me3@redacted.invalid wrote:
Andrew Collier spambucket@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
"But nobody uses CRTs any more" - Steve Jobs [1]
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how strong it is...
My 19" has already destroyed an off the shelf desk, so I ended up building a desk to my own specs [1]. I doubt the mini mac [2] would last very long under there.
[1] I shopped around locally both new and used for anything suitable but short of a £300 desk, or close to 17" TFT monitor prices at the time, neither of which I could afford, so build my own it was. [2] I've decided to change the name as it flows of the tongue better
Ikea have a desk in their "JERKER" range that supports our 21" Sun monitor, a IBM PC and a Performa 5200 (iTurd) :-)
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years (the Performa doesn't count, it's a curio thrown out by a friend), especially since OSX is built on Unix and I have FreeBSD as well as Windoze on the PC, and the mini is very tempting. I found the newsgroup on Google. If there is a FAQ I was supposed to read before posting, I apologise and ask that I can be pointed to it.
We have a faq - it is here: http://www.macfaq.net/ but no need to apologise as you haven't done anything wrong!
So you getting a mini then? go on, you know you want to. Just don't stand the sun monitor on it!
Woody usenet@redacted.invalid wrote:
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years (the Performa doesn't count, it's a curio thrown out by a friend), especially since OSX is built on Unix and I have FreeBSD as well as Windoze on the PC, and the mini is very tempting. I found the newsgroup on Google. If there is a FAQ I was supposed to read before posting, I apologise and ask that I can be pointed to it.
We have a faq - it is here: http://www.macfaq.net/ but no need to apologise as you haven't done anything wrong!
Er, excuse me Liz, I don't recall receiving your subscription fees for this group. I'm sure there was just a little mix-up, so don't worry about it, thiese things happen sometimes. To ensure uninterrupted enjoyment of the newsgroup however please send the £100 fee to the address below at your earliest convenience.
Regards,
Daniele
Woody wrote:
Liz Gerard lilith@redacted.invalid wrote:
Jon B wrote:
zoara me3@redacted.invalid wrote:
Andrew Collier spambucket@redacted.invalid wrote:
In article 1gqa8y9.jql8tqyqjed7N%me3@redacted.invalid, me3@redacted.invalid (zoara) wrote:
Is it just me who thinks that it seems to have been designed to be perfect to go under a monitor[1]? It's the right size, including the height (which is about the height of those stands you get to raise monitors to ergonomically-correct positions).
But presumably it would suffer under the weight of a 19" CRT?
"But nobody uses CRTs any more" - Steve Jobs [1]
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how strong it is...
My 19" has already destroyed an off the shelf desk, so I ended up building a desk to my own specs [1]. I doubt the mini mac [2] would last very long under there.
[1] I shopped around locally both new and used for anything suitable but short of a £300 desk, or close to 17" TFT monitor prices at the time, neither of which I could afford, so build my own it was. [2] I've decided to change the name as it flows of the tongue better
Ikea have a desk in their "JERKER" range that supports our 21" Sun monitor, a IBM PC and a Performa 5200 (iTurd) :-)
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years (the Performa doesn't count, it's a curio thrown out by a friend), especially since OSX is built on Unix and I have FreeBSD as well as Windoze on the PC, and the mini is very tempting. I found the newsgroup on Google. If there is a FAQ I was supposed to read before posting, I apologise and ask that I can be pointed to it.
We have a faq - it is here: http://www.macfaq.net/ but no need to apologise as you haven't done anything wrong!
So you getting a mini then? go on, you know you want to. Just don't stand the sun monitor on it!
After reading some of the posts, I did check out the prices of G4s on Ebay, but for the prices they're going for, versus the features that the mini has, despite it's lack of expandability, I still think it's a better option - I'm thinking of the 1.42 gig with 512mb ram and the power drive. Now I just have to hope that my friends will chip in for my birthday (it's one of the big ones), so I don't have to save up!
Of course, once I have the mini I'll want a 19" dvi lcd to go with it and an EyeTV 410 ;-)
And I'm glad I didn't tread on any toes :-)
Liz G (not an iPod owner)
D.M. Procida real-not-anti-spam-address@redacted.invalid wrote:
Woody usenet@redacted.invalid wrote:
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years (the Performa doesn't count, it's a curio thrown out by a friend), especially since OSX is built on Unix and I have FreeBSD as well as Windoze on the PC, and the mini is very tempting. I found the newsgroup on Google. If there is a FAQ I was supposed to read before posting, I apologise and ask that I can be pointed to it.
We have a faq - it is here: http://www.macfaq.net/ but no need to apologise as you haven't done anything wrong!
Er, excuse me Liz, I don't recall receiving your subscription fees for this group. I'm sure there was just a little mix-up, so don't worry about it, thiese things happen sometimes. To ensure uninterrupted enjoyment of the newsgroup however please send the £100 fee to the address below at your earliest convenience.
Liz, ignore him. He's just trying to save up for a leather goat.
And welcome. The witches are gathering on ucsm. evil cackling
D.M. Procida real-not-anti-spam-address@redacted.invalid wrote:
Er, excuse me Liz, I don't recall receiving your subscription fees for this group. I'm sure there was just a little mix-up, so don't worry about it, thiese things happen sometimes. To ensure uninterrupted enjoyment of the newsgroup however please send the £100 fee to the address below at your earliest convenience.
Now, now, you've been warned about this before: I'm the treasurer.
Jim
Jon B wrote
...and then installed a graphics card which did have a fan on.
Was that in the original cubes, or did they upgrade them at some point in their short lives?
Later ones had a fan on the graphics cards.
...which seem to get progressively noisier as the Cube gets older. Wondering how expensive (and how much of a downgrade it would be) to get hold of an old fanless graphics card.
Suggestions?
MSt
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:13:55 +0000, Martin S Taylor usenet@redacted.invalid wrote:
Jon B wrote
...and then installed a graphics card which did have a fan on.
Was that in the original cubes, or did they upgrade them at some point in their short lives?
Later ones had a fan on the graphics cards.
...which seem to get progressively noisier as the Cube gets older. Wondering how expensive (and how much of a downgrade it would be) to get hold of an old fanless graphics card.
Suggestions?
Replace the fan with a quieter one?
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:09:45 +0000, Liz Gerard wrote:
Ikea have a desk in their "JERKER" range that supports our 21" Sun monitor, a IBM PC and a Performa 5200 (iTurd) :-)
I used to have one of those - it's a good arrangement. Handled all my stuff until I got more space in the study and could spread out more on a more standard corner desk (you know the kind of thing - large flat surface like a normal desk, with a curve and a side section on it too meant for jamming up against the corner).
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years...
Hello - fairly recent joiner of the group myself, a few months now. Started with an LC which means your 5200 was advanced technology to me (though I always did hate the name Performa). Defected to PCs for a while, but came back in once OS X had got into its stride.
Cheers, Ian
Bella Jones me9@redacted.invalid wrote:
D.M. Procida real-not-anti-spam-address@redacted.invalid wrote:
Woody usenet@redacted.invalid wrote:
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years (the Performa doesn't count, it's a curio thrown out by a friend), especially since OSX is built on Unix and I have FreeBSD as well as Windoze on the PC, and the mini is very tempting. I found the newsgroup on Google. If there is a FAQ I was supposed to read before posting, I apologise and ask that I can be pointed to it.
We have a faq - it is here: http://www.macfaq.net/ but no need to apologise as you haven't done anything wrong!
Er, excuse me Liz, I don't recall receiving your subscription fees for this group. I'm sure there was just a little mix-up, so don't worry about it, thiese things happen sometimes. To ensure uninterrupted enjoyment of the newsgroup however please send the £100 fee to the address below at your earliest convenience.
Liz, ignore him. He's just trying to save up for a leather goat.
or sheep being in wales and all....though cardiff isn't know for its large number of sheep...though last time i was there some of the pubs where selling inflatble ones with working offices! heheh
And welcome. The witches are gathering on ucsm. evil cackling
Ooh my.....
roger
Ian McCall ian@redacted.invalid wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:09:45 +0000, Liz Gerard wrote: snips
[ObMac and delurk] Hi, I've been lurking on the froup because like many others I've wanted a Mac for years...
Hello - fairly recent joiner of the group myself, a few months now. Started with an LC which means your 5200 was advanced technology to me (though I always did hate the name Performa). Defected to PCs for a while, but came back in once OS X had got into its stride.
Cheers, Ian
yeah performa was't a wounderful name.
roger
Roger Merriman wrote:
or sheep being in wales and all....though cardiff isn't know for its large number of sheep...though last time i was there some of the pubs where selling inflatble ones with working offices! heheh
That's one big sheep. How much per square foot?
Giles
Giles address.below@redacted.invalid wrote:
Roger Merriman wrote:
or sheep being in wales and all....though cardiff isn't know for its large number of sheep...though last time i was there some of the pubs where selling inflatble ones with working offices! heheh
That's one big sheep. How much per square foot?
Giles
heh
roger